Rethinking workplace design: From access to system transformation

Bridgette (00:04)
Welcome to the IDEA 4DY podcast series. I'm your host, Bridgette Sterling.

Anne (00:15)
So if we're able to effect a transformation or adaptation in the workplace and its processes so that it can be more neuroinclusive, we're helping many more employees than we think.

Bridgette (00:29)
At the start of this episode, you heard from Anne Kresta, one of our guests today whose perspectives help set the stage for our conversation.

Bridgette (00:39)
Across construction and manufacturing,

High turnover, inconsistent onboarding, and workplace environments that don't support a wide range of needs are contributing to a revolving door, particularly for young what is it about the workplace?

And the way that it's currently designed that makes it difficult for people to enter, to stay, and succeed. And more critically, what talent is being filtered out of the workplace entirely because of these design choices?

This podcast is part of the 4DY for diverse youth

developed by IDEA, Inclusive Design for Employment Access, a knowledge to practice effort focused on strengthening employer capacity for diverse recruitment by supporting the inclusion of youth with disabilities, specifically neurodivergent youth, and youth navigating mental health challenges.

In the construction and manufacturing sectors.

In this series, we'll be critically examining systems, drawing upon both industry experience and research-informed perspectives to explore what needs to change and what is already working in practice.

Before we dive in, I would love to start by having each of you briefly introduce yourselves and share what brings you into this work. Anne let's start with you.

Anne (02:04)
Hi, I'm Ann Kresta. I am the president and executive director of a small nonprofit based in Manitoba called Level It Up. I'm also a longtime autism advocate and supporter across Canada and internationally. I work with autistic job seekers and employers to advance and support autism and neurodiversity in the workplace.

And we primarily work with those who have attained a diploma or post-secondary degree in science, technology, engineering, math, or the arts. Specifically, among autistic students and graduates from post-secondary education and training, there's a big disconnect when it comes to the transition to employment. And that's what we're here for. Barriers include the traditional recruitment strategies, interview processes.

lack of awareness and appreciation for niche talents and strength. And we also see autistic job seekers at a disadvantage related to pre-employment skills and preparations. And what we hear from around our employer community of practice table is that in many cases there are challenges with navigating unionized environments, especially if differences in the workday or how work is completed, reporting frameworks are suggested or requested.

Bridgette (03:20)
Wonderful. Thank you so much. And so great to have you here with us today. I'd now love to pass it over to Emile Tompa and Rafael Gomez. Emile, let's start with you. If you can describe your work, your connection to the workplace,

Emile (03:34)
Thank you. Pleasure to be here and have this conversation with you folks. I'm a senior scientist at the Institute for Work and Health. I'm also executive director of IDEA, which is funded by New Frontiers and Research Transformation Stream. And I'm the director of 4DY, which is funded by Youth Employment and Skills Strategy Program from the Government of Canada.

I also have appointments at McMaster University in the economics department and also at industrial relations at U of T. Most importantly, the work I've been doing in this space for the last 25 years has really focused on helping create employment opportunities for all people, particularly those who are marginalized because of disability, and ensuring that employers have the capacity.

To tap into this talent pool. So really focusing on that employer side, capacity building, which is something we've overlooked for the longest time. what we found is that a lot of effort and investment has been put into skilling up workers and getting them job ready, which is, really critically important too. But we miss the other half of the equation where employers just don't have the skill sets to tap into this talent pool

we're here to help change that equation,

Bridgette (04:47)
Fantastic. What an important initiative and so great to have you here as well, Emile And Rafael, over to you.

Rafael (04:55)
Thank you so much, Bridget. I'm the director of the Center for Industrial Relations and Human Resources, which currently houses two programs, one 4 DY being completely at the center under Professor Tompa's guidance and direction. And the inclusive design for employment access program that you mentioned at the top, the staff that run that project are also co-located.

now at the University of Toronto, We have had a long-standing at the center ⁓ engagement with disability and work.

So I'm very pleased to be joining you to talk about these issues.

Bridgette (05:28)
Fantastic. So really great perspectives there that I'm very excited to get into today. To get us started,

Emile, Rafael, tell us a little bit more about 4DY and what the plans are for this

Emile (05:43)
we're really focusing on building employer capacity to create barrier-free, disability inclusive workplaces. we're working through a cross-sectoral partnership, taking knowledge to practice in the field. we have quite a number of partners.

The three key ones are Inclusion Canada.

The Autism Alliance of Canada and Youth Employment Services, so we call it for diverse youth because we're really focusing on neurodiverse youth. And they are a group that are particularly marginalized in the labor market.

We really want to focus on this population and help bring them into the labor market because there's so much talent in that group. rather than focusing on

entry-level jobs in the service sector where their minimum wage, often don't have great career advancement opportunity we though why don't we get into the manufacturing, which is really being transformed with technologies where there's great careers there and also in construction where it's quite often people in the specialized trades are making six figure salaries, and this talent pool is

fitted to seize those opportunities if employers have that capacity to tap into their talent. And they just need to do things differently, create environments that are inclusive of different ways of communicating, of knowing how to, set up training programs that fit their style of learning. making sure the environments have the space that's safe for them to work in,

So we really want to get a sense of that whole journey from school to work into apprenticeship training or other specialized skill sets in manufacturing as well. And understand where are the key junctures where there's barriers to get involved and help break down those barriers with a rigorous evidence informed approach

and we're it we're we're very keen on taking the work we're doing beyond just letting people know what work findings are to ⁓ facilitating uptake of that knowledge in the field through development of tools and resources, guidance, policy briefs, whatever it takes, and then helping with uptake and scaling of that knowledge in the field

I'll pass it on to you, Rafael.

Rafael (07:42)
I'll just say that the focus of this project on employers is so vital. We tend to think of our labor markets in two ways, right? The supply and the demand side. It's a conventional, labor economic approach. But so much more emphasis has historically been placed on the supply side, meaning us as workers, what can we do?

to enhance our abilities to find a job. There's a huge amount of research on what determines people's labor function, meaning how willing are you to enter the labor market? Again, a raft of literature on that. And then finally all the human capital literature, which just focuses on what kind of training, what kind of abilities, competencies do you have? And all of this just misses the big elephant in the room.

You can do all the work possible on getting workers ready. But if there's no one on the demand side asking for your labor, then it's all for naught,

the focus on employers and getting employers confident about hiring workers from more diverse backgrounds has not been done until now. So this is what really excited me And what brings me a lot of joy is that it's not just doing the research, but trying to engage with real employers with real strategies and then disseminating those strategies.

to other potential employers too, so that they could adopt the same practices and benefit from this greater pool of labor and workers that are out there.

Bridgette (09:01)
Phenomenal. Thank you both for leading us through a little bit more of of what 4DY is and why it's so valuable. And to both of your points, there is so much research that is out there focused on the capacity side. It reminds me of when I used to work in post-secondary employment. And the roles for many youth were, you know.

You need to have this much experience in order to qualify for this internship to then get this job. And the students would come and say, Well, I'm here because I need to get experience in order for me to qualify to have experience, but how will I get experience if no one will give me a chance? So it really is quite a dilemma. And when you add in that layer of, you know, all the different barriers to hiring folks who have disabilities.

Creates a lot of challenges So how do we start to look at this, not just from that education standpoint of you should hire more diversely but also looking at the system

And we're gonna get a little bit more into that today. I'd love to hear from Anne, what is your sense of how the efforts of 4DY could best support advancing career opportunities for diverse youth?

Anne (10:10)
I'm very excited about the project because of its focus on employers and sectors. and a traditional sector where we've seen underemployment of autistic Canadians. overall, autistic Canadians experience high rates of unemployment.

And within that employment, they're underemployed or they're working in precarious situations. And yet the skills and talents are there, So by bringing greater awareness to opportunities, we have to engage with this workforce to fill labor force needs and gaps. We can help address the situation in a win-win scenario. So we get.

This unemployed or underemployed labor pool matching up with labor force needs. An added advantage is that within the current workforce, there's already neurodiversity. With a prevalence rate of one in 50 for autism across the country, they are already within the workforce. They're already within the manufacturing and construction sectors.

Many are masking their traits and needs to fit into the traditional workplace. But when we talk about retention, we see them experiencing burnout and having to leave the workplace or ending up on medical or stress leave. So if we're able to effect a transformation or adaptation in the workplace and its processes so that it can be more neuroinclusive, we're helping many more employees than we think.

Bridgette (11:33)
Very well put. Thank you so much for sharing that insight, Anne I think a lot of the time employers in construction and manufacturing and other sectors, don't realize that they've already employed many people who are neurodivergent. unless you're asking for an accommodation those folks aren't required to tell you, right? That they have.

Disability, that's their personal choice and decision. But what are we missing out on? What are we losing by not creating those environments where folks feel safe to disclose and ask for what they may need

what patterns are you seeing when we talk about retention and progression in this space?

Anne (12:11)
well, within this space when we think about retention and we think about autistic employees, the retention rate of people with autism within the workplace is much higher when compared to neurotypicals. They tend to be very loyal, once they've

found a place that they find rewarding, that is able to support them, they want to stay. So again, there's there's another win-win scenario. But what we're seeing and hearing,

Are challenges related to the disconnect between employer expectations and being able to generate a common understanding between the autistic and neurodivergent workers about what those expectations are and how they can be met? So often it's a communication gap. So the top recommendation we make for both our autistic job seekers and their future employers is to spend the time on ensuring that.

Common understanding. It alleviates confusion that might occur. It can address lack of reaching expectations or challenges in communication pathways, especially related to the unwritten rules within the workplace that neurotypicals seem to be able to pick up pretty quickly by observation, but people on the autism spectrum tend to need it spelled out a little more clearly.

as far as career progression goes, understanding what the requirements are for progressing in your career, often that's a big black box for autistic employees. They, get their comfort zone and they don't even think about possibilities for advancing? so being mentored along the way, provided with concrete and direct information about how they can advance.

And thinking about non-typical advancement pathways. a traditional pathway may take that person out of the hands-on work and into a management role where they're now required to have people skills.

Bridgette (13:53)
But

Anne (14:05)
But what if they become a subject matter expert on the welding, the materials, the process, how to perfect that? And then they become a mentor for other welders who are coming into the

Bridgette (14:18)
One of the things that immediately stands out to me is that this doesn't cost anything right? This is just good business. You are retaining qualified workers that are already there, happy to be there, doing good work by taking the time to invest in that social aspect of communication where you're not making an assumption.

That what may be clear to some of your employees is automatically clear to all of them. And by taking the time to do that, you're then retaining and, progressing and growing, people that may continue to really make a great impact in your work.

the research does show that it's often those social aspects, those assumptions about how you ought to act as a part of culture, that can really pose big barriers for folks

Anne (15:05)
I think that attention paid to autistic burnout and masking, what leads up to this and what can alleviate it so that we can better retain folks. More and more the people I'm dealing with are to me in a state of autistic burnout where

They're now looking at a career change because the workplace cannot accommodate them or will not accommodate them with this new knowledge of their autism diagnosis. So information around what is autistic burnout, why is it happening? And it's not necessarily a difficult fix. It's looking to what is contributing to the stress that they're experiencing versus

⁓ traditional burnout where it's you know you've been doing something for so long in the same way or there's been challenges with traumatic events. it's a very different experience and and may not be as difficult to address if the time and energy is spent looking into it and and addressing the

Bridgette (16:04)
Absolutely. And if you will actually, I would love if you could quickly share what masking is for folks that may not be familiar with this terminology.

Anne (16:14)
masking is the process of trying to appear typical when, for example, your sensory sensitivities mean that the fluorescent lighting in a warehouse is really draining you. So at at a disproportionate rate to what others are experiencing. Let's say you you may have requested an accommodation for wearing a ball cap or wearing sunglasses in the workplace, but it's not been allowed.

so that is accumulating over time. You may be able to cope with it for short amount of time, but an eight hour workday becomes something that is so draining that at the end of the workday you are you are done. You have no energy left for what is happening at home or even dealing with something that might arise within the workplace that is atypical.

Over time, if those stressors aren't addressed, they accumulate and can lead to what we call autistic burnout, where the individual has been coping, coping, coping, and they reach a point where they can't cope anymore.

Bridgette (17:12)
Thank you so much. That was perfect, Anne. And I think it's really important that folks understand some of these barriers because there can be so many assumptions around what the cost of accommodation is or what exactly folks are looking for. sometimes it's simple, it's inexpensive.

For some individuals, it's really the social interactions or different elements that can feel like a whole second job. so really important to understand. I'd now love to pass it back over to Emile and Rafael. Rafael, if it's okay, let's start with you this time. What does shifting from individual pathways to systems mean in practice?

Rafael (17:50)
It's great question. I think the best answer is to start at the micro level, even though we're talking about systems. But when you think about reframing access to jobs for workers who come from diverse backgrounds, in this case, facing different forms of disability, mental health challenges. The overriding concern amongst employers is not.

That they will lose out by hiring a potential candidate. It's rather that they'll do something wrong or they'll misstep or they won't have the systems in place to have a worker reach their full potential. So I think we have a lot of prior judgments,

And I think if you get past those barriers and you actually talk to the employer community, there's a much greater willingness to engage once they know that they'll be supported and helped. And let's not forget, most employers in Canada are small to medium-sized employers. So they often face

Greater hurdles because they lack time, energy, resources. the HR complement is often not there. There's a manager who's doing X number of tasks. and by the way, is also managing the payroll, right? and you can make huge inroads if you provide them with the tools. And so that for me is what I think a systems approach does, is it.

looks at the system and says labor demand. Well, who's demanding labor? It's employers, organizations.

and that gives us a different access point to help workers enter the labor market. Not focusing on the supply side but focusing on this underserved area, which is on the labor demand side.

Bridgette (19:21)
Absolutely. Emil, do you have anything you'd like to add to why that approach is so important right now?

Emile (19:27)
Yes, definitely. And lots of great stuff has been covered already by Anne and Rafael ⁓ I wanted to really focus on the notion of inclusive design as being an important piece of systems, Creating a new normal that's sustainable within organizations is more than just having somebody assigned to the role of, HR manager who deals with

disability and accommodation type issues. that person might leave that organization and then it's back to square one. it needs to be woven into all facets of an org or an organization operates, from the people managers and being more inclusive in the way they interact and communicate and mentor the workers, ⁓ but also

Rafael (20:00)
How

Emile (20:11)
in the HR process, in procurement. Most importantly, I think leadership is really important. They have to legitimize and support through resources, to be inclusive by design and to support the diversity of talent that's out there. It's in their interest to do that. And that legitimacy then becomes the new cultural norm as well.

and I think there are important facets disclosure and accommodation, which are embedded in protocols, in legislation, regulations, stuff like that. oftentimes employers associate that with costly retrofitting and redesigning

if we can think about inclusive by design from first principles, we don't need to do as much of that fixing all the time if people managers know that there's different ways of communicating and are well versed in

how to mentor people coming from different places that becomes the way they do work their job every day, right? and when we design both the physical environment and the social environment to be as open and receptive and welcoming to as many people as possible, there's less need to do those fixing activities. And not that we'll do away with it completely. there's always some

situation that you might have not foreseen, but less fixing and more flexibility from the get-go.

it's normal to have unique needs because we're all unique. inclusive by design is sustainable, regardless of who comes and goes in the different echelons of management and leadership

we just need to get employers up to speed on the value of that approach and it's a journey for employers. Small steps are better than none at all, Celebrate those early wins,

it's not that it has to be perfect, I'm a firm believer of continual improvement. there's always room to do better,

Another thing, I always explain that one size only fits one. and so flexibility makes sure that we don't get that mantra of there's only one way to do

Bridgette (22:06)
Absolutely well said. And the research again is there that shows that when we have a more diverse workforce, we're able to tap into greater innovation.

We're able to unlock innovation and productivity that by requiring uniformity, we may not be able to really take advantage of.

So a lot of really rich insights in there and takes us naturally into this next space. Anne, I would love to pass it back to you where do current practices in the workplace create barriers?

Anne (22:37)
Well, Emile referred to it when he was talking about formally requesting accommodations. And often you need the diagnosis, the medical diagnosis to request accommodations for work. and we know that many, especially adults on the spectrum or with other forms of neurodiversity, often don't have the diagnosis, don't have access to somebody to diagnose them.

So then what happens there? And to Emil's and Rafael's point, often

The requests are low to no cost. And there are ripple effects ⁓ with providing them.

but when you're talking about education and training, access to work integrated learning opportunities and apprenticeships. how inclusive are those? often I will

hear from postsecondary education institutions that autistic students either don't feel like they can take part or if they're taking part, they're missing out. So how can those systems be adjusted to be more inclusive using that universal design approach so that everybody who enters

comes out of that training and education system with the work-integrated learning experience that they should that they should have, then at least they're on a more level playing field when they're competing for employment post-training. Recruitment strategies often provide long lists of qualities and characteristics needed for job candidates. Neurotypical prospects

will understand that, you know what, if I don't have all of them, but I have most, I'm going to apply for this job. An autistic candidate is going to look at that list, see the things that they're missing, and think, ⁓ well, because I don't have that qualification or that qualification, I shouldn't apply because I'm not qualified for the job. so let's say they make it past all that, they do apply. Well now they've got to come up against the screening processes.

And if those screening processes use AI that's trained on a typical labor pool, they may inadvertently screen out the autistic applicant.

Then we get to the interview process. And again, often this is a social process versus really looking at do you have the skills that we need you to have for the work? It's relying on social skills and emotional intelligence, which is not necessarily needed to be good at the job. And the interviewer is often looking for culture fit versus culture ad.

it's like a gauntlet of hurdles that you have to jump over to get to the finish line and then your career can begin.

Bridgette (25:09)
Thank you so much, Ann, for painting a really vivid picture on some of the barriers that folks are currently facing with just getting a chance and how the systems that we're looking on are not one system, but it's a broader ecosystem where it starts in post-secondary and the systems there in support for folks to even get these work integrated learning opportunities to later qualify and so forth and so forth.

Rafael, I'd love to hear from you if there's any assumptions in job design or fit that you find disadvantage certain groups more than others. Just any quick insights there.

Rafael (25:44)
the barriers that are often thought of as insurmountable Sometimes they are just presumptions. And whether they're biases or just unfounded expectations around costs, once you give a

⁓ Oftentimes they're just misapprehensions and miscalculations about what it takes to hire someone from say a neurodiverse background or someone who had a past mental health challenge and is re entering the labor market. once you engage, you talk.

the barriers go down and solutions surface.

Making barrier-free environments helps everyone. You know, I remember when they started to put in the closed captioning on all TVs, well, guess what?

that helps everyone in the end. So when you create these new opportunities for employers to engage with this idea of by design, they realize that it's a it's a game changer.

It lowers the cost of doing business generally and makes the environment more productive for all. it's a great philosophy, it's great mindset. You need to focus on the general principles. That's universal. That fits everyone. And then specific solutions are specific to your needs.

Bridgette (26:52)
Well said. Thank you so much, you may be listening to this episode and thinking, okay, what do I do? This sounds so important. I want to be inclusive by design. I want to experience all those benefits from my business. How do I start?

So

What needs to change? Now that we know what the barriers are, we have an understanding of the system, what are some changes that businesses and employers, folks in the space can make to improve retention or performance? Anne, let's start with

Anne (27:21)
I have a few ideas. One of the big ones is providing employees, especially new hires, with mentorship or a work buddy who can help them navigate through a new workplace and to better understand what the expectations are, what are the typical practices, when do you take breaks? Where do you go? You know, what are the rules about storing food in the fridge and who gets at it? Things like that.

Every new hire will benefit from that, but particularly those who have challenges with getting sort of the social ethos of a workplace. Providing regular feedback related to performance review versus tracking things over a

period of time and then every three months sitting down and going through the list of challenges and opportunities. I I just met with an individual yesterday who said, you know, if I had known all along that there were difficulties with my communication style, I could have adapted it. But they waited until my exit interview to tell me that that's what the challenge was. So it's not an effective strategy to wait until the very end.

Cultivating their performance development, their professional development, so that they become better employees for you. Providing opportunities for sharing comments and performance suggestions can be really helpful, whether it's verbally in written format, or it can be a combination of both. Often following up verbal with written is the recommended practice so that it's something to refer back to.

Do that commenting in the moment or a day or two ahead of the discussion that you're going to have so that you can prepare or lay the groundwork for that. And then check in, do those regular check-ins to make sure that the strategies you're employing are working. There may be accommodation strategies that you're using that you know what, they're not really effective, or they're no longer needed. So having that regular check-in can be really, really helpful. So those are just a few.

Bridgette (29:12)
I really love that. And one of the reasons I love that as well, Anne, is this notion of there are many people that are just getting their diagnoses later in life. And for many of those folks, or at least some that I've spoken to, they don't know what they need. So they're doing their best to research what accommodations are out there and coming to their employer and preparing for this big conversation. And

they may have tried something or suggested something and it doesn't work or their needs have changed, then the employer says, well, this is what you asked for. just because you may have a diagnosis doesn't mean that you know what you need or know what's possible. So it can be a little bit of that trial and error and really having that space for co-creation and and tolerance for figuring it out together is so valuable.

Emile, what does the research suggest about designing better systems? Are there any key insights that we can share today?

Emile (30:02)
certainly there is. I want to take it back up to the systems level thinking and as we know, and Anne's touched on a lot of these things, it's not just the workplace, but the whole journey from school to work.

oftentimes youth start in high school in the summer, doing you know, some hours towards apprenticeship training. in the high school system, we have to encourage all people to look for those opportunities and help place them Oftentimes people with disabilities are discouraged from even trying to get that part-time job, that summer job. and so they give up before they even start, so if we can work to help all youth.

look for opportunities that part is a really critical starting point because the literature gives clear kind of evidence that youth who have work experiences while they're in school do better in their careers than those that don't, So we have to make sure that those opportunities are there for everybody early on. also

When we think about apprenticeship training, we have to think about people's different learning styles and adapt You know, if they're a visual learner, a tactile learner, auditory and accommodate those learning styles at the front end rather than finding out the hard way, so sometimes those assessments of

what your styles are and your needs are for the curriculum should be done at the front end and the curriculum appropriately adapted for it. When they're on the work site, you know, making sure that the mentor, the supervisor has a good understanding of different styles, and how to be flexible in their mentorship

And then the testing at the end too, when you do some testing, making sure those tests work for different styles. some people need more time. Some people need audio questions rather than written questions, plain language questions, so there's various ways we can think about the entire learning journey.

of becoming apprentice and then certified in say construction simple things that can be done to make sure that it meets the needs of different people and make sure that they get the most out of those experiences. So I'll leave it at that.

Bridgette (31:55)
Well said. Thank you so much, Emil. And again, that's that systems approach, right? And we really need to make sure that the way that we're mentoring and training and testing folks is inclusive so that they can access positions in the industry understanding that not everybody learns and tests the same way. And I'm sure for folks listening, you can think of at least someone that you know.

That learns best from listening or by watching someone do something, or someone in your family or friends that just doesn't test well but is an incredibly smart and competent person. So creating space for all of those different ways of being, knowing and learning. one final question here. And I would love to hear from you, Rafael, on this to start.

What is one assumption that doesn't hold up, one immediate change, and one longer term shift, that our listeners can take away today

Rafael (32:48)
I think it goes back to what we've been talking about in terms of the costs, both material, like do I have to reconfigure my workspace Or less tangible, do I have to redesign my scheduling?

Two the worry that I'm going to hire someone who will then become a legal liability for me if I say or do or make some misstep. So all of those things are, I won't call them legitimate concerns, because as we've talked here, we know that those are often barriers that can be easily overcome because they're not really there. But to the extent that they prevent.

the demand side from opening up an opportunity for someone who's ready to work, then our job is to showcase through I think examples and tools how you can hire someone, employ them, feel good about doing it, but also your outcomes as an organization will also see a benefit.

Yeah. So that's what I would focus on is that the barriers are often easily overcome because they're not barriers at all.

That's the kind of reframing, that projects like ours is trying to do and working with partners whose focus also has increasingly been on the employer and making the employer ready and confident.

to hire persons with disabilities.

Bridgette (34:03)
Thank you so much, Rafael. And it's a great point, right? There are many employment service providers, which are agencies that have no cost often to an employer to support you with how to approach all of these conversations. If you've never provided an accommodation before and you don't know what you're doing, there are so many different resources available to you. And we're going to be, having folks on this podcast

from all different parts of the ecosystem. So you're not alone to figure it out. and I really love that reframe.

Rafael (34:35)
And I would even go further. It's something that I know Emile's talked about in the inclusive design for employment access project before 4 DY is beyond accommodation. Like you even don't need accommodation if you plan with this inclusive mindset from the beginning. the accommodation almost goes away because you've designed an approach that

Doesn't require that after the fact retrofitting. That's the best case scenario. Yeah.

Bridgette (35:01)
Absolutely inclusive by design instead of retrofitting. Absolutely great takeaway. Anne very quickly over to you. What is one assumption that doesn't hold up and one immediate thing that our listeners can do today

Anne (35:15)
something that we haven't broached in this conversation is the assumed typical personality persona of people who work within construction and manufacturing, the macho man image. You cannot admit weakness, you cannot have a mental health struggle, you cannot need accommodations.

so that is kind of at play within the whole ecosystem that we can perhaps chip away at. but one overriding thing that I hear, a myth is if I change the way I do things for this one person, I'm gonna have to do it for everybody. Everybody's gonna expect it. and

My answer is if you make that change and other people are taking advantage, how do you know they don't need it too? and in the short term, you may get people who are taking advantage. But really, if it's not helpful to their productivity, the way that they prefer to do work, they're gonna go back to the way that they're used to doing things. And mid to long term, you're gonna see that the people who need it.

are going to use it and the people who don't need it are not going to use it. So ⁓ start small, make the change then if we chip away at that macho persona and make that universal design for employment a reality.

Bridgette (36:34)
Well said. Thank you so much, Anne. I think that's a great point. You can't tell someone has a disability, by looking at them. they might have a disability, but they may have been masking it such a long time that you just never noticed before. So just a gentle reminder that.

disabilities can manifest in different What is one assumption that doesn't hold up and one immediate change that our listeners can make?

Emile (36:58)
been some amazing stuff already, just of the things we've heard. I guess the notion ⁓ that it's complicated and that is ⁓ costly is something we've heard a lot. And I think there's some simple things like we talked about being flexible, ask the person, yes by default. These are not costly, these are not complicated.

they're a win-win, it'll make work more inclusive and the opportunities that you might tap into going forward as well. that's really important. the the other thing I want to emphasize is that there's a lot of resources, tools, guidance,

services that are out there it doesn't have to be costly and when you don't know the answers yourself or don't know how to move forward you're not in there alone, you can reach out to to these various places that are out there in this ecosystem for supports, whether it's peer-to-peer support, whether it's some service provider who's funded through some public program, whether it's, some of the community groups who provide incredible services and tools and resources

And start small those small steps that that you make, celebrating the contributions of all your workers and their uniqueness, really important. and one of the things I just wanted to mention too is some of our efforts going forward. are looking within four DY to help further facilitate accessing some of those tools and resources by

Putting together a tool and resource library, a virtual one, ⁓ and putting over a navigational overlay because sometimes just the search costs are high. who has time to sit on front of a computer for hours looking for the right thing, tool or resource,

So the win-win of being inclusive by design, the business case is there, just start that journey.

Bridgette (38:36)
Amazing. I love that so much. And I appreciate that as well. okay, I wanna make my organization more inclusive. I want to do all of these things that all these guests are talking about. 4DY has a lot of resources. We've taken the time to consolidate all of those so that you don't have to spend all of your time looking. And this is a part of a series, so we're gonna have more folks coming on.

And we're gonna have more conversations to support you. So if you're ready to start implementing some of these be sure to continue to listen. you so much, everyone, for all of your insights today. I know I've learned a lot and I'm sure our listeners have as well. What we're hearing is that workplace challenges are not just about individuals, they're about how systems are designed.

if retention continues to be a challenge, it might not be because the right workers aren't there. It might be because the way that work is currently being designed doesn't enable a wide range of people to enter, to adapt, and to succeed. And the changes needed to start that journey aren't necessarily big and expensive.

But they can be small and feasible, like many of the ones that we spoke of today, with many outcomes and benefits to not just the individuals, but your business at large. For youth with disabilities, including those who are neurodivergent, have intellectual or are navigating mental health challenges, isn't about capacity. It's about the relationship between people and systems.

And if that's the case, then inclusion isn't just a support strategy. It's a design strategy. being inclusive by design. So I'd love to thank our three guests, Anne, Emile, and Rafael. I would also love to thank our funders. This podcast is a part of the 4DY initiative developed by IDEA, and is funded by the New Frontiers in Research

Transformation Stream, and the Youth Employment and Skills Strategy, at Employment and Social Development Canada, In our next episode, we'll take our discussions even further by exploring how organizations actually operationalize all these great ideas that we spoke about today.

Through management systems, continual improvement, and the nine domains framework developed by IDEA. Thank you so much for listening. That's all for today.